74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby snapdragon » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:22 pm

Vallejo's RAF Barley Grey (71051) is the actual correct shade for the aircraft. The one you are building and have references for were direct US imports and so were not the English version but factory fresh American paint jobs!

Look at these:

71.120 USAF Medium Grey
or
71.121 USAF Light Grey

I would try both and see which one looks correct.

As an extra bit of info, Phantom fans will be happy to know that HK models have plans to do 1/32 RAF Phantoms. No date has been set and they are AFAIK still in the research stage.
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:14 pm

Thanks for looking Snap. I have both of the colours you suggest and they STILL look too dark! With the exception of 71.119 (white grey - really a dirty white) everything (about 25 different greys) I have looks too dark when compared to any reference photo I have, taken indoors or out. Hence my question about whether anyone knew if the paint was prone to fading in UV. The other problem is the rather odd colour of the F-4J(UK) Phantoms, thanks to the yellow primer coat the Americans used underneath the FS36314 they used as a top coat. That led me to trying to mix my own colour.

That said, at some point, the RAF repainted them in BS626 and I fancy that this would have been done by the time the aircraft I'm modelling appeared at the 1988 Tigermeet.

I'm thinking about making up a colour chip and then taking it to Duxford or Hendon to compare it to aircraft in their collections. It'll delay my progress, but I can get moving on the office in the meantime.

Some people say that Gunze aqueous have a fairly good match and the Mig Ammo FS36314 looks OK, but that means buying even more paint from another manufacturer :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby snapdragon » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:17 pm

Stop everything!

This is a picture of the actual Phantom from Tigermeet '88

Image

Indeed, although my sources etc said that the phantoms were painted in US grey(s) when originally shipped. you can clearly see that this, for which you should have the serial numbers or be able to make them up is clearly and unmistakeably Barley Grey.

It may look like a different shade from Vallejo's bottle, but this is taken in very bright light and Barley Grey is a mimetic colour and thus can to our eyes change. It is an optical illusion done by our brains to provide more detail at a distance. Cameras were also fooled by this also back then, also the quality and make of the film being used and the process used to digitise this can also change the hue and shade.

Vallejo's Barley grey is produced to the official BS and RAF standards. I should know because I sent them direct actual paint samples, both chip and wet plus mixture values to produce this paint. What I suggest is that you make your own paint chip from Vallejo's paint and then once fully cured look at it under your nmormal working lights and then at Lunchtime when the light is strongest take it outside and look again. You will find that the paint will look lighter outside than inside. It is the production of what people call "Scale Effect" being done by the light and our brains without altering the actual paint in any way.

There is another way to prove this. Paint the fuselage in Vallejo barley grey directly from the bottle with no changes. place it outside against any back ground and look at it. Now go away 20 feet or so and look again. The colour has lightened but the paint is still the same. This is an optical illusion caused by our brains by subconsciously filtering light, hues and tones to increase detail. We don't know it's happening but some Anoraks call it "scale effect" and this term came into existence when a modeller in the US was challenged in a competition by a judge about his paint colours for a model. He had actually used the wrong shades for this kit and in panic to get out of things called it "Scale Effect" and it caught on. Especially with AK and MIG paints who use it in their marketing this is why I only use AK for their Xtreme metal range and Vallejo for the rest unless I do need to use Xtracrylix for RAF paints as they are actual BS paints.

The Human brain and eye can only make out a pallete of around 65,000 colours where as the computer can mix far more than we can actually measure with our own eyes. This does indeed not help, but provided we stick to the actual shade in the catalogue and use it then our brains and our personal colour experience will make up the difference without us realising, matching hues, tones and variances within that 65,000 colour range.

YOu might think that Vallejo's Barley Grey is "Too dark, but in fact the colour portrait you put up is wrong and the photo that proves it is above. Stick with the Barley Grey in it's natural form. It's correct and nobody can say anything.

Start saving up for HKM's 1/32 British Phantom(s) - I reckon by the time Neil and the gang get around to it and all the research done then it's going to be a stunner!
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:35 pm

I could always do this one, it would get me out of the grey dilemma! :laughing-rolling:

Image

Second thoughts, I'll leave it to Mustang - he's good at these.

Actually, it's a decommissioned FGR2 that was painted up as the Phantom's swan song.
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby snapdragon » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:20 pm

After a message from Gundog I took a closer look at 74 Squadron phantoms.

The Pantom variant that 74 Squadron was flying was the US Navy F4J. Look at the rear and you can clearly see the tail hook!

44 Sqn. Phantoms were delivered in the US Navy Scheme had a Yellow Priner coat put over the top and then Barley grey over the top of that creating a duck egg Green colour

Vallejo's Duck Egg Green may just cover this, but to me it has more of a blue to it, so maybe Vallejo's PRU Blue may suffice, other than that....

THis is a 74 Sqn Phantom

Image

and so is this

Image

However, when you look for pictures of the pictures of the Aircraft Gundog wants with the tail letter S and matching Reg of ZE355 there are several that show up

Image

Image

Image

It's the same aircraft. I suppose that you could try mixing yellow with barley grey and see what you get, or like I have swuggested earlier, tru PRU blue. It looks very similar
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:40 pm

It's a mind-mangling problem isn't it! :angry-screaming:

The first pic Snap posted is an FGR2. You can tell by the serial number beginning with XT. It's actually the very first FGR2 we received. It's clearly more grey than the others, having always been barley grey. His last-but-one picture shows up the "duck egg blue problem" most startlingly, even though it appears that they're on a quick holiday trip to Akrotiri and the sun could be playing tricks with your eyes. Odd coloured radome on pics 2 & 3. Must have just been replaced.

As I mentioned before, I think I'm going to hold off on the paint scheme until I can do some comparisons against the Duxford aircraft. That won't be until mid-March. No point in going until the American hangar reopens. There's still plenty to work on. The cockpit will need some carving up to accept the Eduard detail.

In the meantime, Fantastic news! :clap: :dance:

I've just managed to secure a Silver Wings 1/32 Hawker Demon AND a Flightpath Hawker Hunter F4 conversion.

Image

Image

Looks like the majority of this project will now be in 1/32. The only thing that won't be is the Gloster Gauntlet, because it doesn't exist in 1/32. Some sources have 74 Sqn equipping for a very short time with Gladiators, so I suppose I could cheat a wee bit.

The stash for this now reads thus:

Encore Models 1/32 SE5a
Silver Wings 1/32 Hawker Demon
Revell 1/32 Supermarine Spitfire IIa
Tamiya 1/32 Supermarine Spitfire IXc
Tamiya 1/32 Supermarine Spitfire XVIe
Classic Airframes 1/48 Gloster Meteor F4
Classic Airframes 1/48 Gloster Meteor F8
Revell 1/32 Hawker Hunter FGA9 (with F4 conversion kit)
Revell 1/32 Hawker Hunter F6
Airfix 1/48 English Electric Lightning F1
Trumpeter 1/32 English Electric Lightning F6
Tamiya 1/32 McDonnell Douglas F-4J Phantom (building)
Hasegawa 1/48 McDonnell Douglas Phantom FGR2
Revell 1/32 BAe Hawk T1 (built)

Still need: Avro 504k, Gloster Gauntlet, Spitfire I, Spitfire Vb(Trop), Hurricane IIa or b(Trop), Meteor F3, Hunter F3, Lightning F3. Some of these I may do without. Having a Meteor F3 AND F4 and the same for Hunters is probably overkill. I would like to get a Trumpy Lightning F3 though.
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:39 pm

I haven't been completely idle, just wasting a lot of time!

One frequent criticism of the Tamiya Phantoms (and a lot of other kits for that matter) is the problem of join seams in the air intakes. The next two photos give you an idea of the size of the problem.

Image

These are just about surmountable. I'd started work on filling some of the seams, as you can see. Then I did a dry fit with the deflector plates in position.....

Image

Those gaps are between 2 and 4mm :o . Filler just isn't going to cut the mustard here! I tried various ways of using styrene sheet to bridge or overlay the gap on the starboard intake and one was partially successful. The trouble comes when one tries to finish off the work and make it presentable. The work area is now 5-7cm down a tube of about 2cm diameter. Filling, sanding, re-filling and re-sanding is a real problem. Don't even ask about trying to get a good paint finish :angry-banghead:

Two options exist: first, buy a set of seamless intakes. Several companies HAVE done them, but they all seem to be out of production, they're as rare as rocking horse droppings and will set me back at least 30 quid. And I'm staring down the barrels of unemployment for the first time in my life.

Second (and it is a cop-out, I'll admit), buy some FOD guards for £4 from Story models. Out of sight, out of mind.

So unless I inadvertently won a lottery I didn't enter, that's what I'm going to do. Apologies to the perfectionists out there.
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby snapdragon » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:01 pm

Don't worry about it gundog. if FOD's are a fix for a problem that can't be got around then go for it. Nobody will criticise you for wanting to fix what is (unusually for Tamiya) a bad design, but these have been on the market for a while and it might have been the best way around this at the time

You should note that HKM have some RAF Phantoms in 1/32 in the pipeline and maybe you should see what comes from them. I am sure that they will be better, more accurate and will have Spey engines inside.

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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:06 pm

Thanks for the support James, I'll wear it always. :laughing-rolling:

I don't like avoiding a problem this way, it goes against the grain. But it's holding up the build and I'm beginning to get frustrated.

If I do have any spare cash in the next month, I'd rather spend it on a 1/32 Mossie than a part that's barely going to be seen. :pray:
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:03 pm

Well, the office is nearly done and ready to screw(yes, screw :o ) in place. I'm going to add a few bits of cabling to the cockpit walls before it all goes together. Here's the cockpit tub as it stands. I'm not overly impressed with the transparent parts on the CRT displays. They're only pushed in place at the moment and I think I'll replace them with Glue 'n' Glaze. The green colour is padding. I think it needs a bit of dirt to tone it down a little. My first venture into weathering! :whistle:

Image

Image

The next thing I'm going to tackle is the PE improvements to the exhausts. 32 bits the same :roll: :angry-chillpill:
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:22 pm

I did a load of work on sub-assemblies (external tanks, wings, missiles, undercarriage) last weekend. Most of them go together pretty well and very little filling and sanding was required. The one exception was the vertical stabiliser. The halves went together well, but the fit to the fuselage was terrible, with a 1-2mm gap that I couldn't get to go away, whatever I tried. In the end, I mixed some Squadron white with Mr. Color levelling thinner to get a soft paste, which i spread over the contact parts. Then I squeezed the stabiliser onto the fuselage stubs and cleaned away the excess with a blunt blade and some cotton swabs soaked in levelling thinner. It's not quite finished, but you'll see that the join is pretty clean and should be unnoticeable under paint. As Squadron bonds to styrene, the join should be reasonably strong as well.

Image
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Mark » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:33 pm

Good recovery !! It's a really tricky place to fill and sand too !!

Your cockpit look brilliant as well :clap:
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:57 am

All the interior parts are now installed and I have joined the lower and upper fuselage halves. The joins are pretty good and shouldn't need a lot of filling or sanding. What's more, the join is exactly where the change from upper to lower paint colour will be. Ignore the colour around the cockpit, that was one of my experiments. The real colour will be much lighter (although I'm still concerned that it's not light enough!)

Image
Image
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Image

You may notice that there are a number of panels on the fuselage that are raised. This is because Tamiya based this model on a battle-weary F-4J which had received a lot of running repairs!

After the addition of some PE to the wheel bays and the fixing of the air intakes and upper wings, it'll be time for some primer.
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Coors54 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:17 pm

All,

I'm in the middle of a similar build at the moment and stumbled across this thread whilst looking for photo's. Although I may come across as being in pedant mode I wanted to clarify a couple of things about the colour scheme on the Brit F-4J(UK)'s, the 'frames weren't "pulled from the desert and hurriedly painted", they were extensively rebuilt to almost F-4S standard by McDonnell-Douglas, they were all painted in US approximations to the RAF Barley Grey scheme which gave a wierd blue tone to the main top colour - the only company to make a paint to match this is Xtracolours from Hannants - X127 is an exact match. I have heard that Tamiya IJN blue grey is not far out either.

At least three aircraft were repainted in the standard RAF greys late in their life, a quick way of identifying repainted a/c is the ejection seat warning triangles, if they are coloured (mainly red) then the a/c has been repainted, if they are still in lo viz grey then the aircraft is in the US colours. In Snapdragons first post the top picture is a repainted airframe in RAF greys, the lower two are in US paint.

Britmodeller carries a pinned thread on the subject http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/inde ... k-phantom/

I'm sorry but Snapdragons comments in his second post are wrong, the a/c with the Tiger head markings is in the original scheme, you can see the warning triangles are lo viz, plus there are a couple of other pictures of the a/c floating around that show the blue hue quite clearly.

I've also never heard of Barley Grey being mimetic, it was used on most RAF aircraft in the eighties/nineties and no Nimrod or Victor has ever been accused of changing colour in different light, only the US painted F-4J(UK)'s because the colour was so different and appeared to change in different lighting conditions.

For a limited number of airframes operated over a fairly short time scale the RAF F-4J(UK)'s enjoy a lot of colour notoriety. I hope my comments are of help. Good luck with the build.
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Re: 74 Squadron RAF tribute. "The Flying Tigers"

Postby Gundog » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:24 pm

Useful information, thanks.

Although I'm not the kind of modeller who has to get every detail right to within a scale nanometer of the original.
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