THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Hachette's JU-87 Stuka Diver bomber. This has been released in several countries in Europe, but is not available in the UK. (but we live in hope)

THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

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THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby snapdragon » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:27 am

Hi chaps (and chapettes)

Having spent lots of time looking at the builds of the Stuka on a couple of German forums I just wonder if soldering is easy, and hust what would I need for the Stuka.

I have no experience of this but I know several members have and any information on what I need and how to do it and make it look good would be more than helpful. My dad says that it is easy!

I have found this on Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300401645808?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Comments, advice etc more than welcome


James
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Mark » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:34 pm

Nowhere near powerful enough. You will need a very big soldering iron to solder that brass.
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby chill » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:42 pm

I can get you a blowtorch for a good price.

SO looks like the concensus is not to solder it.
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Julian » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:48 pm

I've got a Gas Axe at work....
If it's Not Broke, Take it apart and make it better

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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby chill » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:51 pm

ooo shiny new power tool.

Is that like a Plasma cutter?!
:mrgreen:
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Julian » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Oxy and Acetylene bottles
If it's Not Broke, Take it apart and make it better

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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby snapdragon » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:56 pm

Partwork Building is like meeting enemy action - no plan survives first contact!!
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Julian » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:09 pm

Brass & Nickel Silver

The assembly of brass and or nickel silver kits, or scratchbuilding from these materials is as simple as general soldering ie normal electrical soldering. Providing the metal is clean, and the correct materials are used it is a very simple process. When soldering brass/nickel silver, it is important to remember that the metal acts as a heat sink that may inhibit the soldering process, and burn your fingers! It is therefore much more important to use 'tools' to hold brass/nickel silver when soldering.

It should also be remembered that soldering these materials requires the use of a phosphoric acid based flux. Always use in a well ventilated room and avoid inhaling any gas expelled during the soldering process. Always wash well any spills in contact with the skin. Always follow the COSH directions on the bottle.

The materials and techniques for soldering are described in the following sections.

Materials:
1). Phosphoric acid based flux
2). 145o and 188o Solder (some modellers use normal 60/40 electrical solder rather than 188o solder)
3). Soldering Irons - 30w and 70w (on larger scale kits a micro blow lamp)

Soldering Process:

Basic Structure.
Having ensured best fit simply paint the joint with phosphoric acid flux and apply the pre-tinned soldering iron with 188o solder to the joint. The solder will flow along the joint depending upon the metal size and heat available. On large seams tack both ends prior to 'seaming' the joint. If the soldering iron appears to 'stick' to the metal, a larger soldering iron is usually required.

Detail Parts.
Most small detail parts can be added to the main structure using the above technique. However as the main structure increases in size, the more it acts as a heat sink. If more heat is applied, it is possible to desolder the main structure or other detail parts. This is easily avoided by using a lower temperature solder eg 145o solder. This is applied as above.

Lost Wax Parts.
Lost wax is the term used to describe cast brass parts. As they are often solid brass it is often necessary to tin these parts with 188o solder together with the superstructure, before fixing together with 145o solder.

Whitemetal Parts.
Brass/nickel silver solders at a much higher temperature than whitemetal. It is therefore not technically possible to solder whitemetal to brass using normal 188o solder. It is however possible to achieve a solder join between brass/nickel silver and whitemetal by first tinning the brass/nickel silver usually with 188o (or 145o) solder. As described in the whitemetal section above, 188o solder or normal 60/40 electrical solder is similar in its thermal properties to whitemetal. Brass/nickel silver tinned with the higher temperature solder can be soldered to whitemetal using low melt solder - melting temperature 70-80o.
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby snapdragon » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:53 pm

Thanks Julian

Am I getting myself into something that I may regret? Hmmmm!

So.. I have to clean the parts first. I suppose that I will have to key them first with some very fine grade emery cloth or paper.

What do you recommend to clean the brass with?
I was also thinking of painting up each stage so I though of painting each part before soldering then patching after the parts are cool - or should I do it after putting a few parts together.

I will be using Vallejo Model air paints and primer.

This is a totally new skill for me!

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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Julian » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:58 pm

personal opinion..... biting off too much
If it's Not Broke, Take it apart and make it better

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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby snapdragon » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Partwork Building is like meeting enemy action - no plan survives first contact!!
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby snapdragon » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:07 pm

so I practice on some scrap stuff first!!

nothing wrong with learning a new skill. I learnt lots of skills in the Army so I am used to being chucked in at the deep end, and looking on the german forums it seems that soldering this thing is a neater and cleaner way to do than superglue - there is less chance of me ruining it by sticking myself to the (I must not use sligthly naughty words) thing as I usually do when superglue, model kits and me come in close contact or even proximity!

I may have lots of questions and hand holding required, but I do have some old brass etched parts I can practice on!
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Mark » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:56 pm

Thanks Julian

Am I getting myself into something that I may regret? Hmmmm! Yes !

So.. I have to clean the parts first. Yes - thoroughly degrease them I suppose that I will have to key them first with some very fine grade emery cloth or paper.No

What do you recommend to clean the brass with? Many solvents will do the trick. Meths, etc.
I was also thinking of painting up each stage so I though of painting each part before soldering then patching after the parts are cool Road to disaster. Finish the construction first, then paint afterwards.
This is a totally new skill for me!

To be brutally honest, I'm afriad I agree with Julian. Soldering up a large etched model is not something a beginner should tackle. Soldering is neat if you're good at it. You can still make a mess if you're not !
Try asking on the railway forums if you want some good advice from builders who routinly solder etched brass kits together.
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Julian » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:07 am

Thats exactly what I was going to suggest Mark. :)
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby chill » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:32 am

So its a resounding no to solder.
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Julian » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:44 am

Well, It's a maybe NOT.

A desicion has to be made..
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Mark » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:34 am

Can you play the piano ?

Don't know, I've never tried :lol:
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby snapdragon » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:47 am

Well,

Bowing to those who have more knowledge than I do over these matters it looks like soldering this beast is out. I think that I will have to practice on something else until I get really good and know much, much more than I do now!

Thanks guys for your input over this and the information. It looks like I have lots of learning to do on this soldering lark and I will try and learn on something that doesn't matter - in fact I have several issues of the Flying scotsman stashed somewhere which I never did get into and put them away and cancelled the partwork. I think that those issues would be an ideal way of learning what to do and what not to do when it comes to soldering.

So! I am back to the old superglue and/or no more nails ;) or does anyone have some other bonding agent up their sleeve which may be better?

I am aware that I will have to give the parts a rub over with fine emery cloth prior to painting - that's the first job while all the parts are on the fret!

After giving several of the german stuka threads a good look through I am already formulating a build pattern for the first five or so issues!

James
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby Mark » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:39 am

Slow setting Araldite will give a good bond, and doesn't set quickly which is a bonus. Can be a bit messy though.
The Flying Scotsman cab and chassis would be the ideal thing to practice with.
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Re: THe Stuka: To solder or not to solder! That is the question!

Postby mike » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:46 am

Hi James
This might help, I used a product called F'ry's solder paint when i've build brass loco kits
Clean the joint clamp together, paint on with the solder paint and heat makeing a good joint, any flux left can be wiped off with a damp cloth
I used a 30w iron :D

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